Eat Wheat vs Grain Brain: Round 2 (scroll down for Round 1)
We are honored to share this conversation that provides a full scope of information on both sides of the wheat/gluten controversy.
Listen to Dr. John’s interview with Dr. David Perlmutter, MD, board-certified neurologist, Fellow of the American College of Nutrition and four-time New York Times bestselling author. Dr. Perlmutter wrote the #1 New York Times bestseller Grain Brain.
Feb 2, 2019 | 81 minutes, 5 seconds
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Eat Wheat vs Grain Brain: Round 1
January 8, 2017 | 50 minutes, 49 seconds
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David Perlmutter, MD, FACN, ABIHM is a board-certified neurologist and Fellow of the American College of Nutrition who received his MD from the University of Miami School of Medicine where he was awarded the Leonard G. Rowntree Research Award. After completing residency training in neurology, also at the University of Miami, Dr. Perlmutter entered private practice in Naples, Florida where he serves as Medical Director of the Perlmutter Health Center and the Perlmutter Hyperbaric Center.
Dr. Perlmutter serves as Adjunct Instructor at the Institute for Functional Medicine in Gig Harbor, Washington. He is recognized internationally as a leader in the field of nutritional influences in neurological disorders. Dr. Perlmutter is a frequent lecturer at symposia sponsored by such medical institutions as Harvard University, the University of Arizona, Scripps Institute, New York University, and Columbia University.
Visit Dr. Perlmutter’s website!
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Although listening to the both of you go on about your books a huge component you both ignore is the evolutionary factors of Mother Earth as a Whole and Women the factors that are present with Women’s Health Breast Feeding Economics of the Rich or Poor, Prayer before each meal basically the Energetics of Food and HOW it’s grown and Made by Humans with Love, it’s sad to see the both of you go on and on teasing out micronutrients when in fact what I do agree with both of you on is Concious Community’s and Intentional Living in Love and Harmony with Mother Earth that changes the vibration of Women’s Health the birth process effecting ALL the Humans on the planet I’m glad to two had this discussion very insightful. Namaste
I am so happy to see this; especially your references to your idea of seasonal eating.
One thing I would like to ask Dr. D:
The studies you mention, many of them come from Europe, discuss how eating wheat actually heals the gut. Could it be that the way they grow and process wheat in Europe make those studies obsolute with the American population? How do you, as a researcher and healer, control for these differences across continents, countries and cultures?
Also, you mentioned toward the end of the interview that we should not be eating wheat every single day, yet discussed in the beginning of the interview how early humans, hominins, in Africa ate mostly grasses as an argument toward eating wheat. This is a contriduction. I feel you have solid support for your methods, yet also contradict yourself.
As a side note, as an anthropologist I do feel that you throw around the idea and terms of “anthropological studies” a lot while not fully understanding anthropological studies, methods, theories…
Regardless, this was a very informative conversation to watch not only as an anthropologist, but as a former patient of Dr. D and someone with celiac.
Wow!!! What can I say! Two remarkable people I hope to see in ROUND 3. Thank you very much to both of you.
I really enjoyed this rare debate between two respectful men who bravely presented a forum to benefit everyone who will listen and learn from their research and perspectives.
I watched Round 1 and my comment was that it lacked balance and Dr. Douillard was dominating the conversation with non-stop commentary.
Now I just watched Round 2 and all of the issues were corrected. This round especially exhibited:
1. Simplicity – an effort to avoid complexity
2. Consensus – a drive from both doctors to find areas of consensus
3. Balance – a sharing of time to better represent each point of view
These “debates” are extremely valuable and Round 2 was 10X the value of Round 1.
Dr. Douillard seems incapable of understanding the concept of consensus. He also seems to be resisting the concept of making things simple along with clarification. He clearly has a lot to offer but his “A.D.D. DELIVERY” is contrary to clear understanding and clarification.
The basic line of thinking and point of his book is that a damaged digestive system makes wheat a bad choice. Repairing the gut then is a good first choice. It was impossible to follow his logic and Dr. Perlmutter tried his best to clarify.
I appreciate the attempt at bringing these various points into focus and it would seem to me that there is a 99% agreement on key points. It just wasn’t clear from the discussion without clear consensus.
DR.David won the debate, simply because he believes in what he says! here is the solution, buy wheat from those who decided that gmo is for the wicked psychopaths that made it in the first place! then produce from it black bread which is the nourishing kind…. i remember in 8th grade, they started that idiotic biology-branch class about the tree of living things..and the millions and millions fake claim…the first thought that came to heart was and the proof? then as an adult it turns out it is all based on wickked’s beasts fake so called “science”..the whole dating scam is made from radioactive carbon which has a half life, if i remember right, less than 11,000 years..it’s like measuring how much water a bucket can contain with a drop of water! and lets admit it to ourselves, any passion we have, like a sugar addiction is out of our ability to overcome without crying out to the Lord’s help!
both “sides” of this important food issue helps me clarify what i should know to make good food choices … i have read both books and see value, in parts, to both versions of “to eat wheat or not to eat wheat … that is the question” … but i must add that the intensity and rapid speech of dr. douillard is a bit exhausting. his passion and sureness of what he is explaining is encouraging, but a bit intense and, for me, consequently a bit exhausting as well. but then i am 73 years old, an old-timer for sure. nonetheless i am grateful for his contributions to this most important topic. meanwhile, i am choosing to eat more seasonal foods while i remain completely distant from wheat/gluten. thank you both, gentlemen, for this debate.
Dr. Douillard, how about in situation, when blood test showings that person has sensitivity to gluten and it’s pretty high allergen for individual ?
I agreed with your statement, that we should heal the gut and reintroduce back to our diet all list of the food was off the plate for a while. It has to variety of different kind of food in our diet depends of the season .
But how to act if we have a statement from the blood work, the food we would like to eat again, is a
Big time will be a trigger for our inflammation according to the blood work .?
Curious to hear your thoughts on all beef diet eliminating symtoms in auto-immune disorders?
I think the mind has more to do with what you eat, than anything else. What are you thinking as your eating? You get what you think about. There is something WRONG with everything we eat now days. How do you feel after you eat? If you feel crappy don’t eat that. Every person is different and no one has the same thoughts or body. How can one perspective be right for everyone? Stay in joy and eat in joy.
Great discussion Drs. So glad that you have had this discussion.
I was so excited to hear of a debate between these two sides. I believe these can be such a source of growth from a positive exchange. However, watching this exchange, it seems like Dr Perlmutter was on attack mode trying to discredit the other side, instead of going at it from an open and curious view. There was no discussion of the two trying to make sense of the discrepancies brought up, there was just this study vs that study. No critical thinking/dialog taking place. I hope they can sit together outside the camera and explore these ideas from an open place so that insights and even new studies can bring out more clarity to the subject. Unless they think we already know it all, which would tell me that their minds are not only closed and truly locked. I personally have a lot of respect for the Ayurveda tradition and the logic behind Dr. Douillard explanation is superior to any other theory I’ve read so far.
I have just found this podcast as I navigate a gluten sensitivity with neurological impacts rather than digestive. My search for balanced views landed here and I’m thoroughly impressed by the intellectual deference displayed by Dr Douillard & Dr Perlmutter. An informative debate which has encouraged me to look deeper into circadian seasonal rhythms in diet (& life). Thank you!
Very inspiring exchange by 2 inspiring individuals!
I have read Eat Wheat and all the books from Dr Pearlmutter.
Something I cannot understand about Eat Wheat is that Dr John’s recipe to make sourdough bread uses “full purpose” flour, which is normally made by white flour?
I got confused because I thought that the message of the book was to stay away from white flour?
Did I miss something?
Thanks
Organic all purpose flour can be found in unbleached forms, this is ideal. Be well.
My health and gut microbiome declined significantly once I gave up ancient wheat. What I discovered was that it was not the wheat that was causing my gut issues, brain fog, fatigue and body ache, but rather not producing enough hydrochloric acid (HCl). I agree with Dr. John Douillard…heal the gut, improve the diet, detox the lymphatic system, address deficiencies and low HCl, add more healthy fats into the diet, REDUCE STRESS, and incorporate an overall balanced and healthy lifestyle. Thank you for addressing this Dr. Douillard!!
We really have to be our own labs so see how we feel. Most people eat wheat, even processed. Most people are OK. Some people are getting sick because there is some onslaught of something that is disrupting our systems. It may be grains, it may be something else, that is what I feel. Like it or not, grains and wheat have fed the world and will continue to do so. I believe most of us have adapted to it over the millennium. I think the people who lived a long time ago had a good sense of what was going on with what they ate. After all, they developed herbal medicine because they were very sensitive to the effect of substances on the body. If wheat was making them sick, they would have rejected it as something to eat. It seems the processed foods and the pesticides are the new items about us. Just look at the societies that have lived the longest. They certainly did not eliminate grains. We just all can’t, or the world would starve.
My congratulations to you Dr Douillard for this book and the interview. Seeing two experts with very different opinions come together to have a thoughtful and respectful discussion was SO AMAZING! I am so grateful and only hope this inspires more in our community to come together to serve one another regardless of beliefs, science or experience. As a family with mixed dietary needs, I so appreciate your commitment to honoring the complexities of the human body and not subscribing to one idealized form of elimination or healing. And…I love the wisdom in not throwing out the foods that are hard to digest, but to explore deeper the needs of the body and its wisdom. Thank you for your work and courage to put ideas out there that are not main stream. In gratitude….
I have been following Dr. Douillard for a few years now and just fairly recently came across the paleo diet. Then Dr. Douillard announced his new book and I thought ‘I just so wish he and an expert from paleo world would sit at a table to discuss their different view points!’. And here it is! Thank you so much for this immensely inspiring talk of two extraordinary gentlemen! What a rare but much needed dialogue! Thank you!
Good debate. Re schizophrenia and wheat. It’s he-said; he-said, isn’t it. Dr Douillard makes a good point in saying you have to look at the whole picture, where some foods are beneficial for some conditions, but harmful in other senses. The lymph angle seems to be the main point.
If you really think we can eat wheat in the form of wheat berries or any other form try doing it without heat or pots and pans. Very difficult you at least need to soak them.
As for hunting, paleo folks had a big selection and lots off it. Snakes, rabbits, raccons, skunks, deer, rodents, fish galore, etc. hundreds if not thopusands of animals to hunt and eat. When i was a boy of 13 or so i went to a survival school and was able to eaisly find animal to eat with no modern tools. Did have matches to start a fire.
Go on line and see how California Indians caught fish. Five or ten people jump in a river or strean with sharp pointed sticks and jsut start stabbing. Still being done up in Northern California.
I enjoyed the enterview and plan to get the book sounds like more than just eat wheat.
If there is a total economic and social breakdown of our country (and ultimately much of the rest of the socalled first world; it’s coming, to be sure), all those wild animals you list will be killed in no time flat by starving people in our overpopulated world. This is not a paleolithic culture anymore, with its small, widely spaced populations. We have to keep in mind how fragile our food production and distribution systems are.
Just saying; not disagreeing with any of your comments.
By the way, soaking & sprouting wheat is rather easy, don’t you think?
for all you wheat lovers, organic or not, see this:
Jan. 12, 2017 article
From: HEALTH IMPACT NEWS
alert: Certified Organic Food grown in the usa found contaminated with glyphosate herbicide.
pls google this site.
imo, one of many reasons not to eat wheat.
Agree completely about the value and necessity of civil debate and allowing people to hear differing opinions. It requires that your audience participate in active listening, reading and deciding for themselves. This is part of the lifestyle change of participatory healthcare and responsibility.
We as a culture have lost the ability to discuss and support our positions from a factual and studied position, to think critically and be respectful in our exchanges. Bravo to two gentlemen. Thank you.
What the world needs more of: Two GENTLEMEN having a respectful debate. I am SO happy about this! Wonderful information and even better interchange between two phenomenal people who I totally and completely respect–and even more so after watching this!
I couldn’t agree more!! So refreshing
Wonderful interview! Thank you, gentlemen, for the articulate, informative discussion regarding digestive health. It is extremely impressive to see opposing sides of an argument come together and kindly, respectfully yet passionately provide information so that we may take the facts and findings from both camps and merge them together to make our own informed decisions about our health. Deeply needed and appreciated!
Dr. Douillard, your book and the information on your website is incredibly eye-opening and valuable for so many. Please know that your time, energy, and efforts to help others heal are received with the utmost gratitude.
Totally agree with you, Suzannah. For me, the point is not whether I can or can’t eat wheat. The important message is to address the underlying problems which most of us are unaware of and John is very intelligently trying to pinpoint. In regards to the ‘confusing title’, nobody in their right mind would eat wheat or any other food without doing their research first. Thank you very much John for the brilliant job you are doing!!!
Bravo Dr Doulliard!!! I am so impressed with the interview! I was concerned when I saw the interviewer because I know his work and I know know your work and philosophy. Thank you for such an intelligent, respectful discussion. You were on point, and your message was clear, well supported and brilliantly delivered. Way to go!
Beyond what we typically discuss via wheat-gluten and it’s effect on health for some is the pervasive practice of “browning”, the systematic spraying of grains with glyphosate to facilitate maturity before harvest. Glyphosate is a serious environmental toxin with many potential adverse health effects.
Mark
Hi Mark, thanks for the comment. You may enjoy these articles: https://lifespa.com/navigating-toxic-wheat-myths/ & https://lifespa.com/can-gmos-cause-gluten-intolerance/
I can only agree with Dr Perlmutter that I have learnt so so much from this new book: EAT WHEAT. It ishighly recommended!
It has made me look at so many things in a new way and I am very grateful for his comprehensive lectures about how our digestive system works and the whole chain of events that is taking place. From sipping on hot water to the working of the lymphatics and its link to all the modern day ailments and autoimmunity diseases.
Following his method is really addressing the core issue and producing true healing without just treating symptoms either by elimination diets or taking loads of supplements. I believe in eating good quality wheat because of the crucial function it delivers to the microbiome.
Thanks Dr Douillard for your generosity and enthusiasm.
Wow, this is powerful. What a remarkable couple of people, to be able to sit down and discuss such an important topic in a friendly and professional manner… Much respect to you both. John you sure are turning heads with this book, but I’m fully behind you. Reboot digestion, and let’s break bread! Thank you for your contribution to the world John, inspiring to say the least.
My own experience has been eating any grains sets off a cascade of negative symptoms. I would like to see/listen to an interview with Dr Peter Osborne who in my opinion is an expert on grains and the gluten in them.
I don’t know one person who has stopped eating grains that hasn’t benefited from avoiding them, they lose excess body weight have more clarity less overall pain rashes and lesions disappear etc.
I was wasting away eating grains, I did not gain weight, not every person is the same and many of those who are overweight are also eating other processed foods and foods drenched with toxic chemicals. Eating clean/organic is the only way to go in the USA our food supply is a joke!
Grains are poison to me. I think its irresponsible to urge people to eat wheat especially with the modern day plaque of illness’s we now have.
Have you read Dr. Douillard’s book? He discusses this very concept in it. There is more to the story. He never encourages people to eat wheat if it makes them feel sick. Instead he walks you through what you need to do in order to be able to digest wheat again. So you are good to eliminate wheat from your diet if it is making you feel better to do that. He is just saying it does not necessarily have to be a permanent situation.
Thank you for this very important educational discussion. The title of the book is simplistic, directive and therefore misleading. “You CAN Eat (Whole) Wheat* and *Here’s Why” would be clearer. Or “Re-boot your Digestion AND Eat Wheat.” LOVE the alternative to Western medical thinking. Maybe the next publication/edition could be clearer. Thank you!
However, as dr Pearlmutter points out you might not have symptoms or feel yucky after eating wheat but may have consequences because the gluten and gliaden have nut caused gastrix consequences but neurologic consequences.
The name of the book is missleading.
It sure has been made into the new “poison.” But, I completely agree that we have to keep digging as ask “why.” I myself have learned that going gluten free has not solved all my problems. I especially believe in the genetics of this issue. The correlation between blood type / genetic profile and the amount of grain and meat consumed should also be considered. Thumbs up to Dr. Douillard! I completed my 1st Colorado Cleanse this fall — and have been able to tolerate more foods then ever before. There is something to said about his rational and balanced view on treating imbalance in the gut / body – and empowering oneself to take charge of their individual health story.
I have to say – I have tons of respect for Dr. Douillard, and have been following him for over 11 years, since I first encountered him as a teacher at the nutrition school I was attending at the time. Over the years, I enjoyed reading his posts and listening to his podcasts on various subjects. But I have to say – this wheat thing seems to have consumed all his time lately – it’s almost like he is on a mission to prove all the esteemed doctors and scientists, who talk about the potentially negative impacts of wheat, wrong. Most of his e-mails we get lately are about something wheat-related, like dangers of being gluten-free and benefits of whole wheat. By the way, for those of us with real wheat and digestive problems, I believe that whole wheat has a higher content of wheat germ agglutinin protein than processed wheat, and may cause even more problems. And I agree with a lot of what he mentions in his wheat discussions – that there is much more out there than wheat alone, and gluten certainly is not the only contributing factor to our health issue, and our digestion became compromised by many different factors. But still I just wish Dr. Douillard could get back to education us about things other than wheat some time soon. It’s always good to hear different views on health things, but I just think this total preoccupation with wheat and gluten has gotten a little out of hand lately – I have been thinking about it for a while…. And there are practitioners out there who mainly talk about dangers of gluten, which is not so great either. 🙂 That said, gluten, among other things, did a lot of damage to my health, and I am not sure that fixing my digestion would allow me to ever eat gluten-containing foods again.
Hi Julie,
I appreciate your experience, but mine has been very different. I stopped eating gluten because I heard it was “bad” for you, and over a period of time, my gut microbiome lost diversity and I became sensitive to more foods, and overall, less healthy. I wish I had had the information Dr Douillard is sharing about the benefits of eating good wheat, and the dangers of avoiding it, before I went gluten free. The recent Interconnected microbiome series demonized gluten, and more and more people are avoiding it. As Dr. Douillard said in the podcast tonight, there are studies to prove both sides. I think it’s incredibly important that Dr Douillard (and Alan Christianson) continue to share the studies that offer a different perspective.